No, I'm saying nothing of the sort. I've been into WH space a little, I know what the difficulties are to an extent.
I'm just saying that people are way over quoting what Incursions pay out, ignoring the fact only a handful can get that pay out at any one time, and ignoring all the difficulties and risk that incursions take.

You guys need to stop with all the whinney entitlement threads allready, you have to realise that WH space is a pale face of its former self, the glory days of mad T3 brawls all the time are over, the majority of groups sum you up when seeing a scout of yours in their chain and roll away 90% of the time.

I get that the changes CCP have made are not the changes we have suggested in years of threads but it is about time CCP spent some dev time on WH space and try and fix the ***** lives you have all started to live in WH's. Do i wish they consulted more with us before? Sure but they are the game developers and we aren't, you are all lucky they discuss this stuff with us as much as they do really.

Fob me off as a troll all you will but i can pretty much call out almost every large group out bar only a couple that has rolled away hostile chains when their numbers were not perfect or they had some other ***** excuse lined up. They either rolled away or did douchey bullshit to avoid the fight anyway.

TBH the only people i feel sorry for this are the people that lived in C2 space before these changes. These people lived here for the ISk and PVP usually and they already risked more then the C4 sooks that come out of the woodwork to cry over these changes, and now they seem to have far too many holes to roll away when needed due to the majority of new C4 statics being C2's.

the only change i would make to hyperion is make the new frig Wh's only available WH>LS or WH>null, i think WH>WH frig holes are beyond stupid and defeat their intended goals of facilitating large groups to roam.

I will be more then happy to discuss things further with you when you can post on your main, i will not discuss mechanics, gameplay or the joy of kitten cams with NPC alts.

You shouldn't i am more then happy to debate with people further as i always have if you can look at my post history.

But i have a strict no debate with NPC alt rule other then to troll you for posting on that toon.

Most people's reaction so far seems to be to just not run sites anymore. But if we start to accept that occasional losses in pve are inevitable, and no reason to be embarrassed because they will happen to almost everyone, then in the long run everyone could profit.

Yes, I assume people choose first where they like to live gameplay-wise, and that they treat isk income as a secondary concern. I know many people are different, but I couldn't care less about those people.

Still, like I said, low-class income needs a buff. It was okay when ribbons netted 8m apiece, but with just over 3m it's a joke to run sites in c1/2, especially now when there is some actual risk involved.

But the problem is that the ratio of total noobs and completely stupid people had become too low in w-space.

...

So I think CCP had to change the rules so that an incalculable risk is always present, no matter what we do. Because if there is a near-100% safe way to do things, we would sooner or later all do it again that way.

But you're right in that the rewards must be good compared to other parts of EVE to draw or keep those players who get their fun from isk earned (however that works) instead of from doing something risky and unpredictable.

Even the pathetic crying about NPC characters posting is old and doesn't accomplish anything; sounds like Nullsec mental deficiency creeping into this forum. People have their reasons for using the characters they use in various aspects of this game, and just because it generates tears doesn't mean they'll change. Regardless of which character posts, embrace (or attack, whatever) the words, not the poster. I would have thought a Diplo to be more capable and understanding than that.

That's a really good way to look at it. Wormhole space is easy to understand (if you try), has relatively few mechanics, and very few timers. It's easy. It's just exceptionally deadly because your environment can change when you're not looking.

One key defining characteristic is that the landscape, the neighborhood, is constantly changing as a natural game process (liken that to PvE). Another key defining characteristic is that you can change that landscape behind your opponent's back (liken that to PvP). Just like we consider market warfare to be PvP, using wormhole mechanics against your target is also PvP, whether it's done by bears to create a false sense of security or by hunters trying to trap bears. I'm sure most of us have stories of combat rolling in the middle of a pitched battle to try to divide your opponents forces (or having it happen to you).

CCP should embrace this second key aspect of wormhole space, even if it means their Nullsec masters get stuck or shot.

I'm failing to see why people think that the isk farmers don't like Hyperion. Closing off thei hole is a little harder now, but there are even less people rolling the new sigs. Their are less people rage rolling. This is a bearing paradise.

We have 4 High Sec connections in our chain today.

I know its not a popular opinion on the forums, especially the post patch whineathon that the wormhole forum has become, but if you wont fight for it, you shouldn't be holding it, and if you can't or won't fight for it, please don't come here complaining about it.

What do you expect when the guy who designed the Nestor is given the job of "fixing" wormhole space?

Cheaper pvp really? You found much cheap worthy pvp so far with the frig holes? It been out for some time now, so have you?

CCP intended them to screw with W-space, because for some reason before the frig holes we somehow weren't able to engage in frigate combat. If they meant for them to be useful for places that actually use frigates, aside from Nullsec frigate blobs into W-space, they would have added them to all of K-space.

Like so many other things lately, the change (addition) mostly only raises eyebrows of the big groups, while it provides a huge incentive for small groups to cut their activities when one is present.

Not only does CCP not understand W-space, but I'm starting to think they don't know what life is like outside of a 5000-man alliance.

Yes that is correct, i probably could have made it clearer, and i agree lowsec to null holes could actually be quite nice.